The Cuba Michael Moore Won’t Show You

This is Cuban healthcare, the one for the average Cuban – that is, for the majority of the population of the island. Don’t expect Sick Michael Moore to feature this in one of his next ‘movies’. Cubans won’t enjoy world-class health care as long as communism is in power. The health care Moore talks about is available only to a small elite around the regime. The photos below were taken by an independent journalist and photoreporter. Courtesy of Cuba Democracia y Vida

VEAN NUEVAS FOTOS DE LA REALIDAD CUBANA: Precisamente del asilo de ancianos de Pinar del Rio, tomadas por el fotorreportero y bibliotecario independiente Luis Alberto Pacheco Mendoza. La dictadura cubana que con tremendo descaro, falta de respeto al pueblo cubano, desfachatez e indolencia sigue enviando médicos y recursos al extranjero para hacer su política de infiltración del comunismo cubano, olvidando en las más terribles condiciones a los infelices enfermos del propio pueblo de la isla.

“LA POTENCIA MÉDICA” DE LA DICTADURA CASTRISTA Y SUS CANALLAS COMO SILVIO RODRÍGUEZ, PABLO MILANÉS ETC, ETC…


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92 Responses to The Cuba Michael Moore Won’t Show You

  1. [...] Free Thoughts on Michael Moore and Cuban heath care. [...]

  2. no2liberals says:

    Wait a minute!
    You mean Cuba isn’t the worker’s paradise, that all the Hollyweird types tell us it is? I’m shocked…shocked, I tells ya’!
    And I also thought the movie title “Sicko” implied Michael Mooron’s movie was autobiographical, not a shockumentary.
    The things we learn on the innernut.

  3. Matt says:

    Sad but not surprising

  4. rationalpsychic says:

    I’m sure that the majority of Cubans don’t get the quality of health care depicted in “Sicko” or Moore would never have been allowed to film there. The pictures you’ve reproduced above, however, could also be found in the U.S. in facilities funded by private or public dollars.

    My opinion is that Moore was showing that publicity value or not, the people he took to Cuba couldn’t get the health care they needed in the U.S. at a price they could afford. Did you doubt the price on the medications that the woman with lung damage was able to purchase at a local pharmacy?

    It’s not a Moore’s right, the Repblicans are wrong sort of an issue. It’s an issue that affects all of us as Americans and we would do well to fix the situation rather than blame malpractice costs for the difficulties of insuring everyone. Calling Moore “Mooron” is certainly not going to move anyone closer to getting the health care they need or lowering the infant mortality rate in the U.S.

  5. Henry Gomez says:

    Moore’s movie doesn’t stand up to any serious scrutiny. The fact is that the US is a leader in health care innovation. If our system is so bad and health care is so important, why do we receive a steady of stream of immigrants from countries with systems that are supposedly better? The answer is obvious, either those systems aren’t all they are cracked up to be or there’s something more important than “health security” like personal freedoms.

  6. corduroy13 says:

    Actually, U.S. health care ranks something like 37th in the world, according to a 2000 report from the World Health Organization. Unless we shot up some 36 spots or so in 7 years, I’d say that’s a little more credible than a bunch of reactionaries who haven’t even seen Michael Moore’s movie.

  7. Hey rational psychic how about backing up your claims with statistics and proof or forever hold thy mouth. You liberals love to spout banalities.

  8. freethoughts says:

    I want to tell the liberals defending Michael Moore and badmouthing US healthcare – not perfect but still the best system in the world, a couple of things. Some month ago, here in the Italian island of Sardinia, there was a large scale campaign to finance the travel to the US of the family of a 8-year old child who suffered from a rare form of cancer. His parents took him there because they said America was the only place where the child could be treated. They returned home and said the doctors did a great job and their son now is recovering well.
    This is not the first story of Italians traveling to the US to receive treatment.
    Here in Italy, you can ask everyone , from left to right, about our healthcare system, and you would hear an unanymous chorus of people saying that it sucks.
    1) In most cases, in order to book a visit to a specialist, you will have to wait up to 8 months. I have direct experience of that both with me and my mother. In the meantime, one might fall ill during those 8 months.
    2) Almost everyday on Italian TV, you can see reports or debates on the medical errors, many of which have killed patients. We call it “malasanità” and this is becoming a word we hear every day here.
    On the contrary, I heard of some people I know who went to the US to receive treatment and told me of the excellent attention the doctors paid to them, as well as the excellent treatment they received. In Italy, in many hospitals you meet opportunist and arrogant doctors who when you call them answer you things like this: “Please, call me only when it’s really urgent!”. I saw this when my grandmother was hospitalized several times in the recent years.
    As for Cuban healthcare, that Michael Moore lies is a matter of fact. Just go to Cuba and see with your own eyes, but don’t go with a travel guide. Or speak with Cubans themselves, as I did when I meet some at a disco club here. P.S. : In the next few days, I’ll post many more photos.

  9. no2liberals says:

    Irrespective of the deceits Michael Mooron has traditionally displayed in his alleged documentaries, his premise that a failed communist state’s socialized medicine system is preferable to the medical systems available in the U.S., is where he earns my derision.
    Communism has never been the answer, regardless of what question is asked.
    The treatment that the individuals in this film allegedly receive, will never be available to the citizens of Cuba. In fact, Cuban doctors have, and continue to, flee Cuba for the U.S., for many years. I’ve met many from Canada that marvel at the Hospital districts in my city, and have met cardiologist from Canada that report doctors in their specialty have immigrated to the U.S., as soon as they could get the paperwork done.
    Affluent Canadians and Brits come to the U.S. for treatments that would either not be available or would require such a long wait, that the treatment would not come in time.
    Yes, in the U.S., if you don’t have an insurance policy, which is an individual responsibility to acquire, or the resources to pay, you can still get some medical treatment, but not the most costly.
    With a communist style health care system, everyone suffers equally, and there is no incentive for the best and most capable physicians to remain, nor is there any incentive for a young person to put in so many years of study, and their only reward will be a paycheck from Comrade Comptroller.
    I’ll take my chances with a free market system any day, even if I should find that my insurance won’t cover a procedure I may need. I’ll fight any communist style medical system.
    One other thing. As I am a laissez-faire capitalist, and believe in democratic principles, I have not, nor will I ever pay to see any film by Michael Mooron. I vote with my money, too. Communist don’t like people voting or having money.

  10. Ron says:

    To Corduroy 13: Yea, I wish they would lift the travel ban so we can get free operations in Cuba. See you there, eh Bro? What you smokin, Bro? It done your head!

  11. corduroy13 says:

    37th in the world. I’m not “badmouthing” U.S. healthcare. I just gave you the facts from the World Health Organization. Talk to as many Cubans at as many discos as you like: Moore went to Cuba with his own eyes. You didn’t. You didn’t even see “Sicko”.

  12. corduroy13 says:

    Ron: When did I ever say I’d rather get an operation in Cuba? All I did was show you that the U.S. ranks 37th according to the WHO. What are YOU smoking?

  13. freethoughts says:

    Michael Moore was accompained by the regime’s medical guides. Has he visited Cuban hospitals for Cubans? He hasn’t, because he hasn’t visited Cuba on his own. He was accompained by regime-appointed tourist guides. It’s like going to North Korea and saying that everything is well there, because you’d not visit that country unless accompained by regime’s guides. That occurs in every dictatorial country, as well as it could have occurred in Mussolini’s Italy. I’m sorry to repeat that the health care for ordinary Cubans is a hell. Open your eyes, wake up and smell the coffee.

  14. freethoughts says:

    The U.S. ranks 37th according to the WHO
    Ah, and the WHO belongs to the United Nations, an organization whose Human Rights Council is made up of the world’s worst tyrannies and whose human rights watcher for Cuba, Christine Chanet, was fired because they decided that Cuba and Belarus can continue committing crimes against their peoples and there’s nothing wrong with that.
    “Talk to as many Cubans at as many discos as you like”
    Yes, I shall. It seems you don’t care about the opinion of the Cubans.
    “Moore went to Cuba with his own eyes”
    Those Cubans I met lived in the Cuba of Cubans for 30 plus years, living as Cubans, not as tourists or foreign billionaire filmmakers going there to kiss Castro’s ass and see what the regime wanted them to see.

  15. Allan says:

    Rationalpsychic may be correct but it is the exception rather than the norm. I have been an engineer on foreign projects and had opportunities to talk to others from countries that have socialized medicine and they tell a very different story than Michael Moore. People should ask themselves this question: I f government health care is so great how come people from Canada, England, and other countries with this type of health care come to the United Stated states for treatment when thy have serious problems?

  16. freethoughts says:

    Just ask the dozens of Cuban doctors who defect on a weekly basis while with their teams in “internationalist missions” around the third world. If healthcare was so great, then why they flee and most of them seek refuge in the United States?

  17. liberallie says:

    The pictures you reproduced above…..

    Alright rationalpsychic, prove your powers and reproduce pictures of a US facility where comparable conditions could be found. Don’t forget to get the name and address so they can be reported to the State Government that licenses such facilities. Looking forward to this post. By the way, keep in mind we spent a week going ballistic because of some mold in a bathroom of a dormitory at Walter Reed hospital. We must be utter fools since these conditions can be found anywhere in the states.

    I’m looking forward to this response.

  18. liberallie says:

    One last thought. As a veteran deeply familiar with military medical facilities, let me point out that military medicine is socialized medicine. Looking forward to adoption of socialized medicine nationwide. It will be great!

  19. [...] The Cuba Michael Moore Won’t Show You This is Cuban healthcare, the one for the average Cuban – that is, for the majority of the population of the island. […] [...]

  20. Marcos says:

    Whether or not Michael Moore is right about Cuba, your discourse sounds completely crazy and out of touch. You remind me of hysterical maccarthysts in the 1950s, at the peak of the Cold War. And claiming that the World Health Organization’s rankings are worthless because they are connected to the United Nations is like saying that the World Bank is a communist organization because it cares about poverty reduction. Come on, try to be serious. It’s for your own good. You just look stupid and hysterical.

  21. joe jones says:

    Corduroy13

    Hope you have a great experience in the Cuban Health care system which you seem to prefer over the 37th ranked US system. I know that you say you are only reporting the facts from WHO. Perhaps those who did that ranking at WHO would prefer to get their care from any of the countries that rank ahead of the USA. For my part, I will stick to the private care system in the USA. I think my odds of successful outcomes will be much higher than anywhere else in the world.

  22. 2008voter says:

    to corduroy
    “I just gave you the facts from the World Health Organization. Talk to as many Cubans at as many discos as you like: Moore went to Cuba with his own eyes. You didn’t. You didn’t even see “Sicko”.’
    Do you know what Fascism is? I bet you you know !
    Now tell me please , if you did you see the movie Triumph of the Will by Leni Riefenstahl would your opinion changed about fascism? I doubt it. can you understand the nature of Fascism without watching Triumph of the Will? I bet you can !!!
    So , watching a propaganda movie and understating the subject has nothing to do one with another !!!!
    i grew up in soviet union and according to the World Health Organization USSR had an excellent Health care system and a lot of hypocrites liberals were visiting USSR praising its achievements. But in fact we, soviet peaople did not see those achievements other than in western leftists propaganda . None of those liberals choose to stay and live in USSR ,

    by the way read these true stories may it help to grasp a realty beyond propaganda

    http://golos.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/true-story-about-free-healthcare-2/

    http://golos.wordpress.com/2007/07/02/true-story-about-free-healthcare/

  23. corduroy13 says:

    freethoughts: Just keep setting up strawmen for yourself then. Whatever evidence you don’t like, including the WHO report, will just be a liberal conspiracy. And of course the Cubans you met outrank the Cubans anyone else meets. I know several young people who have spent a good deal of time studying in Cuba through various college programs, and who lived with Cuban families, who are able to point out both the positive AND negative things about the country’s condition: not the propaganda you like to invent for yourself. However, in your mind you can dress them up as blood-sucking far-left “wackos” or whatever “creative” insults you amuse yourself with. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

  24. Anthony Baird says:

    The emails from Moore supporters are sadly utterly predictable. While there are undoubtedly holes in the US system, and in many other ‘capitalist’ societies, nothing could be worse than the systems run by totalitarian socialist regimes. Remember the Iron Curtain? Remember why it was built? To keep residents from communist countries from running away.

  25. Peggy Archer says:

    Look, I’ll certainly agree that Moore got access to a level of medical treatment not available to most Cubans, but the fact of the matter is, the US health system is not, in fact the “best in the world” and people who come here from Cuba do NOT do so primarily for healthcare reasons.

    The other thing is, this is not an either/or basis. Just because you dislike Michael Moore doesn’t mean the US doesn’t have some problems that we, as a nation, need to address in order to make ourselves stronger and healthier as a nation.

    Namecalling and being divisive isn’t going to solve anything. At some point, we all have to put our idealogical differences aside and start talking to one another as human beings.

  26. print says:

    “why do we receive a steady of stream of immigrants from countries with systems that are supposedly better?”

    Because the government sponsors large corporations, allowing them to hire immigrants FOR LESS then a US citizen. No, the immigrants aren’t stealing jobs, they aren’t coming here to buy medical insurance, they are coming because there is a demand from large corporations to have cheaper labor.

    Moore talks about the price of healthcare, and talking about cuba and doctors defecting from cuba has nothing to do with healthcare, and more to do with the doctors imagining how much money they can make in a healthcare system that is spiraling in costs.

    Michael Moore took one aspect of Cuba, price, and people love to indulge in slamming Moore, and take all the bad of cuba, irrelevant to the documentary, which wasn’t a cuba / us comparison, but highlighting flaws in the US system.

    Why do people like to slam Moore? imagine if someone came up to you and showed you how stupid you were for allowing this system to do what it does for so long. You get angry at the healthcare, but, since this is past 1984, your 5 minutes of hate is directed at the enemy. Moore. Without even trying the healthcare companies have got you hating one people who speaks out with credibility against the US health care system THAT WAS ALREADY THE BASIS OF RIDICULE INTERNATIONALLY well before this movie. YEARS before this movie.

    Not so much ridicule as disbelief. When Brits talk about the US health care system the common response is ‘no really? I don’t believe it’.

    So, now y ou know why you bash Michael Moore, are you going to continue, perhaps put me up on your viewscreen and scream for 5 minutes, or make you own mind up about the situation??

  27. frome says:

    Thanks a lot for this site! Finally someone has spoken out. I’m Cuban and I’ve been exiled for some years in Europe, and the comparisons provided by Moore are far less realistic than we think. Medications and drugs in Cuba may be incredibly cheap for the Americans, but for the Cubans they represent an important percentage of the ridiculous income of they perceive. I’m not denying the fact that the Cuban Health Crae system is a fake, I’m just pointing out that Moore has joined the Communist parade of showing what Cuban Dictatorship has spread out for more than 40 years. Some months ago, a journalist from Spain tried to make a documentary about the same subject in Cuba (with a different approach of course), and he wasn’t allowed to. Time for a new view, Moore, I beg you, for Human Kind!!!

  28. lopax says:

    I can only tell you how the health-care is in Austria.

    Everybody is insured by law. You do not pay to see your practitioner or a specialist. The care from specialists is good. You can have additional health care, but very few people have it, or would think they need it.

    You have to pay for medication, but usually $10 to $20 (I would guess, I didn’t need medication for a long time). You have to pay for some special dentures. But you do not have to pay for any visit. You will not have to pay anything if you are in hospital.

    I can’t judge how it is in Cuba, and I haven’t lived in America. But I do not think the American way is the right one. In my opinion, the state should care for its citizens, and for ALL fundamental health care.

    btw, I haven’t seen Moore’s movie yet.

  29. BadWolf63 says:

    @ corduroy13

    LOLOLOL! Actually that ranking system is just CRAP!

    http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

    It puts Italy in 2nd place in the world!!!

    I’m Italian living in Italy so i know what i’m talking about

    Best Regards
    Francesco

  30. peripheries says:

    I personally know a Cuban who has a kidney disease that necessitates him going 2-3 times a week to a hospital to get his blood cleaned by a machine. They use the same filter more than once because they can’t afford a new filter every time!
    So I don’t know about the rest bit I think this says it all…

  31. freethoughts says:

    Bad Wolf is right. Again, just ask the Italians you know, from left to right. Even communists will tell you that Italian healthcare sucks. Yesterday, Italian Rai Tre (a state-own channel known for being the mouthpiece of the Left) broadcast a special program about the evils of Italian healthcare system.
    1) Up to 8 months before getting a visit to a specialist
    2) Almost daily medical errors. Recently, three people got the HIV because of a wrong transplant. Four more got epathitis because of a transfusion with infected blood. This week, an old man died in a clinic of my city after the doctors forgot a lint in his intestine. When he suffered pain there, doctors said it could have been a “simple bellyache”.
    Again, ask as many Italians as possible and they will tell you our healthcare system
    may be well compared to the Third World countries. We don’t care about what the WHO
    says. We live the reality everyday.

  32. freethoughts says:

    And you know what? We have two parallel systems: on the one side, public healthcare owned by the ASL – formerly known by “USL”. There you don’t pay a cent. BUT, where you don’t pay, the service and attention are disastrous. Where you pay, you receive the best treatment. It’s not just a coincidence that the medical errors – that kill patients – occur in public structures. I understand that liberals tend to speak like that because they have everything and who has everything tends to hate what he has. Don’t complain, because you would be sorely disappointed by what you’re looking for.

  33. freethoughts says:

    Don’t forget that dozens of Italian researchers go to America for their scientific researches. How can you explain that? How can you explain that many go to America to receive treatment against rare diseases?

  34. I do not think Moore’s comparison of the Cuban health care system to the American system was valid, because he did not present an accurate depiction of the ENTIRE Cuban system. (You could argue that he also didn’t present an accurate view of the American system, but that is neither here or there.) That he willfully left out discussion about “medical apartheid” and other related matters shows that he was willing to do whatever it took to present his pre-determined outcome. Another omission is that the practice of sending Cuban doctors overseas has resulted at shortages at home for Cuban citizens. Of course, the regime doesn’t care about them, so thats not a surprise.

  35. T. Powell,MD says:

    Michael Moore is a liar. Corduroy13 is an idiot. US Health care, while not perfect, is a ‘shining light’ to the world. When was the last time that a ‘village’ sent some unfortunate, diseased child to Cuba to receive medical care? It’s too bad that stupid is not painful.

  36. Matt says:

    With regards to all who have posted above claiming US healthcare isn’t perfect or it’s too expensive, know this: my dad is an orthopedic surgeon (specialty in traumatology: gun shots, car wrecks, etc.). 30% of his clients never pay him and yet he takes care of them no problem. A few of his fellows (those who are in the medical community know what I’m talking about with regards to fellows) were from Canada. They say there are waiting lists for people waiting to come down to the US for specialty operations that my dad does everyday because doctors in Canada can no longer make a decent living due to gov’t price controls (of socialized medicine). Why does prescription medicine cost so much here in the US? On average it takes between $800-$900 million to develop a medicine along with fifteen years of research. For every one medicine put out by a pharmaceutical company that makes it past FDA testing and onto the marketplace, 100 do not from the same company. Do the math. Very little of what pharmaceutical companies receive in payment for their drugs is profit, most goes right back into R&D.
    As far as Michael Moore is concerned, he is a liar. I have no time to go into all the deceit and lies he has propagated over the years. I won’t fund him by seeing Sicko. Bowling for Columbine (one example) I know many of the facts to be distorted, without having consulted any outside sources. As for the rest of his movies (thru Fahrenheit 9/11), read Michael Moore Is a Big Fat Stupid White Man.
    Finally, Cuba’s health care? I’m betting what is shown in the film is the stuff foreigners can get. If any Cuban walks into these places, they’re arrested. Seriously, do you think a Cuban would risk jail time by bad mouthing Kasstro or the system? I think not. therealcuba.com and KillCastro have documented this phenomenon quite well, along with Stefania’s post above.

  37. pearlalexander says:

    Well clearly Moore is an idiot if he would choose to use Cuba as an example of ideal healthcare.

    You ought to come to Japan. I pay fewer taxes than I did in the US, get treated like gold by doctors, pay $10-20 for medicine, and don’t have to file any papers to deal with it. Over here, people go to the doctor if they stub their toe. And they tell you things like, “well, you could take this medicine, but in my opinion you don’t need it.” Thank you universal healthcare.

    This is opposed to the thousands of dollars I racked up in debt when I couldn’t afford insurance, being yelled at in the waiting room, and being constantly goaded into taking anti-depressants when I didn’t need them while in the US.

    The American system is utter shit unless you make any money. And this of course would be because you deserve to make it more than the next guy.

  38. Holley says:

    The fact that Cuba or any other country ranks above the US in medical-care fully explains why those same cubans are dying to get into the US.

    I hope you can all recognize sarcasm.

  39. lemare says:

    Absurd to think that CASTRO would take better care of his people than the US. So I pay more than $10 for medical care. It is GOOD medical care and it is IMMEDIATE. Certainly no waiting a year for surgery like in countries with socialized medicine. God Bless America. Michael Moore should move to Cuba. And someone with NO regard for his OWN health should not be issuing healthcare propoganda.

  40. cathcoach808 says:

    Judging from the large number of responses here, I think Moore’s movie is doing exactly what it set out to do – spark debate on health care in the US. His “comparison” to Cuban Health care was just another tactic to achieve this. I agree that some of the best health care in the world exists in the US – as long as you have the money to pay for it.

  41. freethoughts says:

    “waiting a year for surgery like in countries with socialized medicine”

    Well said, and this is what happens in Italy. Up to 10-12 months or 8 if you are lucky. Who’s living in Italy (and I’m still, but not for long) opens a magazine or review and often reads reportages about “malasanità” (literally “bad healthcare service”) and this has nothing to do with left, right,or center. Also, I have some Italian friends living in the US (where I’ll go in 1 year and a half) who tell me the prices of medicines like Aspirin. In Italy, you pay $10 for just 5 tablets. Does anyone believe that prescription drugs here are free of charge? I’m sorry to disappoint you. You have to pay many medicines. Many, almost most. And those that were free of charge, now have to be paid because of a tax imposed on them. Socialized medicine means bad services and lesser attention by doctors.

  42. abu ameerah says:

    I think that even Castro doesn’t trust Cuba’s healthcare system…

  43. pearlalexander says:

    I’m sorry that you have come to the conclusion that because Italy doesn’t have a handle on it’s own system, that socialized medcine means bad services and lesser attention from doctors.

    It doesn’t mean this. In Japan it means the exact opposite, fantastic services and fast, polite attention from doctors. There are 31 countries in this world that have some form of socialized medicine, and it’s unfortunate that so few of them are here to counter your lengthy and repetitive complaints. If you have a problem with it, go somewhere else. That’s what I did.

    I am one who has LEFT THE US to get good healthcare.

  44. BadWolf63 says:

    @ freethoughts

    You leaving too?

    In max 3 weeks i’ll be in Illinois :-)

    oh, happy july 4th to everyone :-)

    Best Regards
    Francesco

  45. Izrail says:

    I live in Central California (that’s in the U.S. for those who don’t know) and recently had to have some minor surgery.

    Heres what I got: 2 doctor visits, 1 surgery, 3 prescriptions, and because I am deemed indigent (read: poor) I got all of that for free. Not to be billed later, not going to collections, no co-pays, but absolutely FREE.

    I guess the ‘evil’ American health care system isn’t just for the rich.

  46. BadWolf63 says:

    And no one is talking about the fact that in Italy taxes are from 50% to 60% of the income

    Best Regards
    Francesco

  47. bloggingollie says:

    You do realize that this is modern day propaganda? Startling images mixed with words that are intended to evoke anger.
    I’m not saying Michael Moore is above that either, BUT, nonetheless, the point of SICKO is not to promote Cuba’s medical system, but to simply point out that an American can (some times) get better access to care there, yet they PAY for it tenfold here in the states. He’s not saying Cuba is gold, he’s saying that it should be beneath a country as enriched as America to deny medical treatment here, when Cuba could do better. That’s pointing out the ridiculousness of American corporate controlled care, not the greatness of CUBA’s system.
    These images are startling yes, but many Americans aren’t even afforded a bed when it comes to healthcare. They are denied entrance in the FRONT DOOR. In some capacities, even the crappiest healthcare is better than none at all.

  48. The Cuba Michael Moore Wont Show You

    This story has been submitted to Stirrdup. Your support can help it become hot.

  49. lopax says:

    Public health care does not have to be bad – as it appears to be in Italy. Austrians usually complain about everything, but somehow not about the public health care (as long as they do not have to pay for dentures). Nobody from left to right.

    As bloggingrollie says, all you get is propaganda. And nobody denies that you get good health care in America or Cuba – as long as you have the money, bad if you don’t. I don’t want to argue about Cuba’s system, but America’s: Is it just that a family has to decide whether they spend their money on a hospital stay of their son or vacation? (

  50. no2liberals says:

    There will always be threats and opportunities, for every nation.
    The U.S. can deal with it’s own problems concerning health care, but it begins with personal responsibility, not with government control.
    I don’t consider myself to be a part of any debate about socialized medicine, but an opponent to it. This alleged documentarian has the right to make money on his deceits, and I have the right to criticize his work. On that there can be no debate.
    Is healthcare expensive in the U.S.? You bet it is! You get what you pay for, just as you do when the service is free.
    The greater cost of personal freedom and liberty is sorely lacking on this thread, as is the charity and humanity that Americans display to each other, in times of need.
    Unlike this alleged film maker, I don’t believe I should be looking into another man’s wallet, for the treasure that I’m responsible for providing, for my own needs.

  51. freethoughts says:

    Francesco: hai un blog?

  52. no2liberals says:

    As I mentioned in my previous post, Americans display charity to those in need.
    As illustrated in this article, Charitable Donations by Americans Reach Record High.
    We can take care of our own problems, without the propaganda of a film maker with an eating disorder.

  53. [...] The maverick independent librarian and photoreporter who’s risking jail for taking these pictures, has written a good piece entitled “What achievements in the health care?”. He [...]

  54. BadWolf63 says:

    freethoughts: no, dopo una brutta esperienza col forum “thankyouoriana.it” ho preferito volare basso ed aspettare di essere in USA per farne uno… casomai la IADL volesse intervenire… sai non ho il vitalizio da ex parlamentare europeo della D.V. da buttare in avvocati…

  55. BadWolf63 says:

    P.s.: io ero solo un moderatore del forum , non l’owner

  56. Ross Gallup says:

    I’m currently a patient in the US system. I have both diabetes and chronic lymphocytic leukemia. I also have health insurance. My insurance currently comes from my employer. When I wasn’t employed, my insurance came from the Minnesota pool for uninsurables. I’ve never suffered from a lack of care. It is expensive, but how would I fare in Cuba? Would I receive care from doctors ans good as those at the University of Minnesota clinic? I have no complaints.

  57. mdvp says:

    Yeah, and since when has anyone expected Moore to be right? He and his liberal friends would make health care worse by getting the government more involved when we should be returning to the pre-Medicare/Medicaid system.

  58. Dave says:

    “I want to tell the liberals defending Michael Moore and badmouthing US healthcare – not perfect but still the best system in the world,”

    That’s laughable… Australia’s medical system is miles ahead of the US system…

  59. tercermundista says:

    LOL @ all these comments. A lot of people seem to miss the point of Moore’s argument.

  60. Skip says:

    I saw “Sicko” this evening and was impressed but not impressed. There were some scenes taken out of content but for the most part I think most of it was fact. As for the pictures of Cuban patients…they could be pictures from any country including the good ole USA.

    The point of the film is to get Americans thinking and maybe get up off of our duffs and stand up and fight for a better healthcare system. One that is fair and equal for all. I often wondered what the insurance companies would do if all of us, on the same day, at the same time would just cancel all of our insurance policies; health, life, car, home owner, etc. Put the insurance companies out of business. And…I always thought that doctors took the hypocratic oath that states that they can not refuse the treatment of anyone?

    People…lets unite. Our declaration of independence starts with WE THE PEOPLE. There is power in masses, but I truly believe the most Americans have forgot that. WE CAN MAKE DIFFERENCE IF WE UNITE TOWARD A COMMON GOAL.

  61. rationalpsychic says:

    charleskittredge. Thanks for challenging me to back up my assertion that the pictures of older folks neglected in healthcare facilities “could be found” here in the U.S. Sorry, I won’t have pictures to provide, but I’ll be back later today (7/5) with some documentation since your simple statement is supposed to stand in as superior to my “banalaties.” You obviously haven’t worked in the healthcare field to doubt that such things could go on in the U.S. Going to see “Sicko” or other movies that disagree with your own point of view or which point out problems is not a seditious act. If you haven’t the strength to examine your own country and be willing to change some of what’s wrong while using your head AND your heart then I believe you’re just burying your head in the sand. If you want to come back with a reasoned argument that goes beyond, “You’re wrong,” and gives me something to actually consider and mull over, then we actually have the beginnings of debate and may be able to see each other’s viewpoints.

    rationalpsychic.wordpress.com

  62. Sofia says:

    åh! those pictures…

  63. Angel York says:

    Matt: Pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars on advertising – more than any other industry in the United States.

    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=781742

  64. freethoughts says:

    Based on accounts of Italians who went there to receive treatment, I reiterate my opinion about US health service being not perfect, but still the best in the world, even for those who can’t afford insurance (do you know Medicare?). Even who can’t afford it, can receive good treatment. Read Ross Gallup’s comment again.

  65. Antievil says:

    U.S health care is as rutten and discriminating as it´s policy
    and “democracy”. if you ever think you are the best in the world
    get a passport, lower your voice, put a canadian flag on your bag
    and oversized t-shirts and step into the world. that´s if you dare
    and can say anything else then “shut up you liberals”.

    some socialrealism for the “greatest sick country” in the world

    http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/black-nooses-hanging-from-the-white-tree/

    http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/06/17/americans-on-911/

    pez & love (if there is any going around in us today?)

  66. freethoughts says:

    “that´s if you dare
    and can say anything else then “shut up you liberals”.”

    Have you ever heard of the “fairness doctrine”. If not, let me explain you what it’s and let’s see who’s really threatening free speech in the U.S.

  67. pearlalexander says:

    Let’s see…so far we’ve buried comments from 3 different universal healthcare countries, Japan, Austria, and Australia, which say things are quite fine, in fact far better than the US system. Concrete facts and numbers included from Japan and Austria! And they’re all lower prices than the US! And the doctors treat us fantasically!

    I envy those of you who are poor enough to get free aid from the US, because I’ve met dozens who aren’t POOR ENOUGH TO GET CARE. Nor RICH ENOUGH. Just normal, hard-working people.

    I suppose we’ll just continue to ignore these facts about socialized medicine in order to be idiots obsessed with playing victim and wallowing in our problems, won’t we.

  68. Antievil says:

    really, I think gets so much more intresting and complicated when people turn of fox news,
    read a book or two and dismantle the obsession that U.S. is the best around.

    do not mix me up with someone that is at all intrested in what´s going on in U.S. I have
    little symphaty for that (your mess, your president, your healtcare, your egoism, your
    cosumerism, your neoliberalism). as an anti-american these days are heeydays for me.

    I, with many, will look forward to “sico”. the title could not be more right!

    have a nice day!

  69. Not too mention that part of Cuba’s health care industry (the mental health field) is used against those who dare to criticize the government.

  70. Antievil says:

    the thing with Cuba is that it´s the only country in backyard of U.S. that hasen´t
    done what U.S. wanted and wants. hence the boycot which is totally illegal and
    can´t be justified more than out of colonialism. yes Cuba is not a democracy (!) and
    could really do some updating in areas as human rights, individual freedom aso.
    and so could U.S. do!

    hasen´t Cuba a higher reading & writing scores that U.S.? isn´t their healtcare
    one that dosen´t discriminate out of money and race? isn´t it better if the goverment
    runs the healtcare than if multidollar corporations do?

    my point, to critize Cuba one has to acknowledge that no seeing is neutral. from a
    U.S point of view Cuba could never be right or better or anything at all than the summary
    of 50 years of boycot. Cuba never got a chance to stear their futures as they wanted as the U.S. citizen never got a chance to make up their mind from diffrent kinds of informations sorces.
    that´s why “sicko” hit so hard cause Cuba can never be better than U.S. when actually so
    many countries always have been.

  71. freethoughts says:

    Cuba hasn’t done what ITS PEOPLE wanted: holding free elections, releasing 300 political prisoners, most of which are DYING in jail because they aren’t receiving medical attention.

    I’m sorry for you, but Cuba will become democratic soon, as history is a proof that tyrannies don’t last forever.

  72. Antievil says:

    what do you know what the people of cuba want?! please could you give me reference to that claim of yours. really want to know more about the 300 dying political prisoners before it´s to late and the source that knows what the cuban pueblo wants!!!

    i betchya they want what everyone else want: peace, possibilities, security, justice, work and future oppertunities. and many of them don´t know what is better: “the us democracy” or “fidel democracy”. one thing though, the cubans are not stupied. one should start with that perspective and respect for others.

    hey, I know a country that easily could release more than 300 illegal political prisoners out of jail because they are dying of torture and other shit. that´s what the people of the world wants. that´s what the international law demands. that´s what the human rights all scream aso… heard of guantanamo and a country that has got the power of God to implement democracy over the world? (or Israel for that matter)

    http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1766037.stm

    http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/05/08/who´s-the-terrorist-now/

    regarding the “proof of history” that tyrannies wont last = I JUST CAN´T WAIT because the time is tick for US! the biggest tyranne, supporter of tyranny and promoter of tyranny in the world!

    so don´t feel sorry for me as you said the history will have it´s turn…

    http://antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/america-kicks-ass/

    have a great day!
    i will.

  73. Nathan says:

    I’ve been to many hospitals over the years, and the only differences between those pictures and what I’ve seen in US hospitals are…
    Our hospital beds look cleaner – and less comfertable.
    Our walls look cleaner.
    All those people look old and destitute. What, no YOUNG or ATTRACTIVE people get sick in Cuba? Maybe young people DON’T get as sick as often as we do here. We do have an epidemic of obesity, heart disease, and diabetis on our hands.

    The pictures look similiar to what our hospitals looked like 50+ years ago, you know, before the embargo.

  74. Bryon K Harrelson says:

    Of course Cuba allowed Moore to film there,they wanted people to believe the lies in his film,the WHO ranks health care in America above Cuba’s.
    Since Moore likes Cuba so good,tell him that if he ever needs a heart operation to go there and have it.
    And I’ve been to hospitals here in America and they never ask anything about payment until after I get treated,the if I can’t pay right then,they set me up a payment plan and I make payments.
    Moore is just an ignorant LIAR.

  75. Antievil says:

    “Moore is just an ignorant LIAR.”

    And you are not out of which critieras?
    Because you never got questions about payment until after treated?

    ?

  76. Me in NY says:

    Hey Corduroy13… “Talk to as many Cubans at as many Disocs as you want?” What kind of racisct nonsense is that? Did you write that in your treehouse smoking hemp? Because that ridiculous statement lumping liberals together is as bad and as stupid as yours. I don’t know my compassionate liberal friend…seems like your “Everyone is great and equal as long as their like me” liberal slip is showing.

  77. BS remover says:

    And yet, Italy is ranked number 2 in the world by the WHO. Well if the World Health Organization (an arm of the UN) says it, it must be true. It also says, if you actually read the data of the rankings, that the US already spends more per person on healthcare than any other country in the world. Based on that fact, spending more money does not appear to get you to number one, does it? We also happen to be ranked number 1 in responsiveness.

    I would be curious to see a comparison of life expectancies from the ranked countries, but that was not one of the parameters the WHO thought was important enough to include in their analysis. Also, how much is the US system burdened by illegal immigrants – some 15 to 30 million souls who have never contributed a dime into the system, yet require the services nevertheless. France and Italy don’t share that little problem.

    And Rationalpsychic, if you think there are scenes like that to be found in the US, why don’t you go ahead and post them for us.

    Can healthcare in the US be improved – yes. Do we need Michael Moore-lies to tell us how it should be done? I say no.

  78. Old Whig says:

    corduroy13,

    I have not seen Moore’s movie and I do not intend to. I have a couple of reasons for not seeing the film: 1) seeing the film only lends credibility to the film and it’s maker, and I will not lend credibility to a known fabricator, and 2) Moore is not debating health care with this movie. In fact, there is no real debate that this film seeks to address.

    A debate assumes a point-counterpoint discussion seeking to illuminate the better of two viable alternatives. Moore’s thesis is not a viable alternative, and therefore not worthy of discussion.

    I said above that Moore is not debating health care with his film. Anyone who has heard Moore speak about the film knows that he is not debating the quality or price of care, or length of waiting times. Moore himself says “we need socialized health care in this country” (interview with Jay Leno). What Moore is actually arguing is a socialist transformation of America, and is using health care as one reason why such should be pursued. Health care is just one point in his larger argument.

    America is not a socialist nation, and should never be socialist in any aspect of citizen’s lives. Socialism is a destructive, inefficient system of government based on selfishness and plunder. Those who believe that health care is a right, or that it should be free, or controlled by the government have an incorrect understanding of economics, law, rights, and human nature.

    The report from the World Health Organization is deeply flawed and is easily discredited. The reason the US is #37 on the list is because it ranks 55th on the list of nations that provide free health care to its citizens. In other words, the report is skewed to give nations with socialized health care a higher ranking. Nevermind the fact that having socialized medicine should not be a factor in considering the overall quality of care in a specific nation. If the report were truly objective, it would disregard that particular element and allow the reader of the report to determine whether or not quality of care is affected by how health care is funded, whether it be a government-run single payer system or a market-driven private care system.

    That report was designed with a particular objective in the minds of its creators, and was formulated to obtain a specific result. And that, in any other circle, would be considered intellectually dishonest and wrong. The UN engages in that kind of dishonest reporting all the time.

  79. pbobdoober says:

    Michael Moore is a media whore just like most reporters. He did it for the dollars!! Why else would he be working in this industry? Because he cares? I think not. It’s just a job to him and he’s exploiting the falsehoods via a camera lens to his advantage. Because viewers will believe a picture/film.

  80. Malagent says:

    None of the Moore fans will car, they will keep right on pushing for socialism along with Conyers and Kucinich.

  81. DBug says:

    Old Whig is correct, and I hope he’ll let me follow up. Corduroy and others are touting the WHO report without clearly understanding what exactly the ranking is saying. The rankings are not based solely as “general level of health care received.” The rankings try to rank the entire health care package, with satisfaction, competency and cost all factored together.

    The US is, I believe, the only non-socialized provider listed. Certainly it’s the only one in the handful of nations’ names thrown around this blog. Basically, the list is saying the health care of the US is excellent, but the price is very high. (As the only non-socialized version, this is a given our cost is going to be astronomical compared to other countries. Before typing a knee-jerk “but that’s the point…we should be free, too” email, understand the taxes of the countries were NOT factored in.)

    So Cuba gives worst health care, but for practically nothing and this will show comparable to the US which provides excellent health care at a larger cost to the actual patient.

    And that’s logical. You keep holding up the fact their system is ranked only two behind ours, but don’t ask why. If, after all, their competency, care and successes are so similar to ours, how can they rank BEHIND us if they’re damn near free? They can’t provide equivalent care for better costs and be lower than us on the list. It doesn’t make sense.

    For the record, I’d like to share with you which nation ranked first overall in patient satisfaction – yep, the US.

    That said, no one is saying our system isn’t flawed and can’t use some help. But those of you claiming we’re missing Moore’s point are missing ours. Moore isn’t simply suggesting the health care industry needs help – as Old Whig correctly pointed out, Moore is suggesting we need to fix it with universal health care.

    Many of us are suggesting this “Plan A” isn’t a good idea, and let’s try “Plan B.” Plan B can have many different directions to streamline costs…I’d start with malpractice reform. But that’s just me.

  82. Tillerman Ray says:

    Dear Courduroy 13;

    If Cuba’s health care system is so damn fine, why did Rep. Bonnie Garcia (Coachella Valley, CA) visit Cuba last year while delivering crates of disposable medical supplies that were (are) in short supply in Castro’s paraiso?

  83. David Howard says:

    I am truely amazed that no one seems to have seen the irony present on the WHO healthcare list.

    The USA is ranked 37th but Cuba is ranked 39th!

  84. roccsteady says:

    as thinking individuals, i believe it is important to know that each story has interpretation. this interpretation that the story gives us is unique to each of us becuase we normally see things in different ways (isnt that what makes us human beings…the fact that we have our own thinking brain?). it is hard for me to judge anyone truthfully without being able to see/speak/and hear them for myself. in doing that, i can take my own interpretation of what i am being subjected to. even if that person or group of people is lying or swaying away from truth, i have the ability to make my own decision based off of my own bias. my wife is a journalist and one thing she taught me about reading articles is that the author has the ability to sway thought by using words that direct the reader to a particular avenue of thought. i am in no way saying that things are perfect in cuba, but i am saying that by no means do i find it justifyable (sorry if that isnt a word) for people to see something and just take from it a new definition of truth. for true understanding, shouldnt one read…read…read…and see…see…see…and experience…experience…experience…those things which we feel greatly about so that it is our own thought and feeling and not that of michael moore or whoever else is trying to sway your emotions. i have personally visited the island and find positives and negatives there, as i have found in the us. i would dare to ask people to search and they would probably find similar photos of people in places like america…and other countries we deem friendly. we usually find the dirt on those counties which dont support our political foreign policy so that they look bad, and in the end…we look democratic.

  85. [...] won’t show you… Posted by warrior under Human rights , Media , movies  An oldie in cyber-terms, but for a balanced view and a successful life pls check it out, a post of a [...]

  86. Phil Sorenson says:

    Fascinating. I have yet to see the film, and so will reserve judgement. I will not, however, reserve judgement on socialized medicine. As someone who has been both part of the US Healthcare system as a PA (worked inner cities in Chicago and DC), and a recipient of socialized medicine, let me tell you, for all its flaws, I’ll take the US system over socialized medicine. I left the US and no longer practice medicine due (in part), to excessive malpractice insurance. I am living in Tokyo Japan now, and must say that there are good and bad things about the medical services here.

    I know that people keep trying to bash the US healthcare system, but ask yourselves this: Who keeps consistently coing up with newer and better medical innovations? The US or socialized medicine countries? My father was a cardiothoracic surgeon who did several dozens of FREE (no cost, no higher taxes on the recipient, no payment for medicine or aftercare) costing him tens of thousands out of his own pocket. All of the doctors he knew did the same. When I was a PA less thaqn half of the patients paid, but they did not get less quality service from me. (I know, we evil Americans are all supposed to be so greedy and denying people healthcare ALL THE TIME). I never saw anyone turned away or denied an essential operation or treatment EVER, regardless of thier ability to pay. My father syas that in his 39 years of practicing medicine it was the same for him. I have yet to meet any doctor who has.

    I knw the US system isn’t perfect, but I’ll take it over socialized medicine any day. BTW the WHO report that everyone is talking about ranked countries according to equal distribution of healthcare, not QUALITY. And even then, distribution is unclear. Why should governments “distribute” healthcare and how do you do that, exactly? Go door to door?

  87. Faith lost says:

    You know, I’m sick. Moore lies – so what? So do most movies. Unless you’ve seen a man who can not die after 2 rounds of bullets up his ass.
    But the stinking son of a bitch at moorewatch effectively got 12 thousand shoved down his throat to save his bloody wife – and the shitslinging continues? Shows what trolls can do.
    All I’ve seen of moore just now was Sicko, so I can’t be a fan or an anti-fan.
    But I still think that for this disgusting reverse turn, the guy should have simply lost his wife. It puzzles me how an assfaced selfish little bag of jealousy can even HAVE a wife.

    -one vers disgusted person

  88. Stacey says:

    I live in the US. I am not considered poor but I do not make enough money to pay for health insurance. I have had health issues for about a year now but cannot pay for insurance and am afraid to go to the doctor on my own dime. Why? Because if a doctor finds something wrong with me BEFORE I have insurance, no insurance company will want to insure me.

    I fully support Michael Moore. I do not deny that there are issues with socialized health care, but I do plan to move to a new country soon….one that has socialized health care. Of course I am doing my homework to find the ideal place.

    I have lived here my entire life and I am about as anti-US as it gets. Everything from the government , the pharmaceutical industry, the religion, the health care, the education, etc is so corrupt. I can’t wait to get out!

  89. level headed says:

    You yanks crack me up. You believe anything your trusty CNN and introcentric media throws at you, and still believe the “reds” are lurking in every corner. No one here has really mentioned the other examples Moore brought up like England. Is it because it is a democratically elected nation that seems to be getting it right while you all pay absurd amounts of money for medications and throw fellow citizens into the streets? Must be because most of you are all drugged up on some sort of pharamacutical concoction that your “sold out” Dr. gave you. Good luck to all of you in your state of complete denial and not thinking things could be made better. Typical that most of you just spout of “We’re number one”. I wish you all well and good health.
    By the way, I agree Michael Moore needs lessons in doumentary film making but doesn’t every media take a side and do all they can to persuade you into believing their agenda. He is just doing what all of your media outlets do.

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